I recently had the opportunity to join Brandon Burley on The Redemption Project podcast for what the episode description aptly calls "a working conversation between research and lived reality—grounded in evidence, humility, and firsthand experience." The central question framing our discussion was one that has driven my research for years: What actually changes lives inside prison—and what only sounds good on paper?

After spending years conducting firsthand research in correctional facilities, evaluating prison-based theological education programs, and listening to hundreds of transformation narratives, I've learned that the gap between policy rhetoric and genuine change is often wider than we'd like to admit. This conversation gave me the chance to explore that gap—and what it takes to bridge it.

Beyond Recidivism: Why We Need Better Metrics

One of the most persistent challenges in correctional education research is our over-reliance on recidivism as the primary—and often only—measure of success. Don't misunderstand me: recidivism matters. Whether someone returns to prison is a legitimate concern for public safety, fiscal responsibility, and individual well-being.

But when recidivism becomes our sole metric, we miss the fuller picture of human transformation.

During our conversation, I explained why well-being is actually a stronger indicator of successful reentry than raw recidivism rates. A person might not return to prison for many reasons—some related to genuine transformation, others to surveillance intensity, lack of opportunity to reoffend, or simply aging out of criminal behavior. Conversely, someone might stumble once during reentry while demonstrating profound growth in their capacity for healthy relationships, employment stability, community engagement, and personal purpose.

Well-being—encompassing psychological health, social connection, purpose, and agency—tells us whether someone is truly flourishing or merely surviving. It reveals whether the change runs deep or remains surface-level. In my research with 287 participants in The Urban Ministry Institute's prison-based programs, I found that those who demonstrated markers of human flourishing during incarceration showed resilience and growth that transcended simple binary outcomes of "returned" or "didn't return."

The question isn't whether we should track recidivism. The question is whether we're willing to measure what actually matters for long-term human transformation.

How Theological Education Reshapes Prison Culture

Another theme we explored was what prison-based theological education gets right—and why it changes entire housing units, not just individual students.

This was one of the most striking findings in my research. When rigorous theological education enters a correctional facility, the ripple effects extend far beyond the students enrolled in the program. Housing units that host seminary-level programs often experience measurable shifts in culture: reduced violence, increased peer mentoring, spontaneous study groups, and what one participant called "a different spirit in the place."

Why does this happen?

First, the programs I studied weren't watered-down or patronizing. They were academically rigorous, seminary-level courses requiring the same intellectual engagement expected of any graduate student. This rigor communicates dignity and high expectations—a stark contrast to the low expectations that often characterize institutional life. When you treat people as serious thinkers capable of wrestling with complex theology, philosophy, and ethics, they rise to that standard.

Second, these programs create what I call "authentic community"—relationships grounded in vulnerability, accountability, and shared purpose rather than survival tactics or institutional hierarchy. Students learn together, challenge each other's thinking, hold each other accountable, and develop bonds that transcend the transactional relationships that dominate prison culture.

Third, theological education is inherently future-oriented and restorative. It asks participants to grapple with questions of meaning, purpose, identity, and responsibility. It creates space for examining past harm while developing a vision for contributing to others' well-being. This forward-looking posture combats the hopelessness that can pervade long-term incarceration.

The result is a cultural shift that affects not just program participants but also the officers, administrators, and other residents who witness the transformation happening in their midst.

Stories That Challenge Our Assumptions

Perhaps the most important part of our conversation centered on how redemption stories from inside prison challenge public assumptions about crime and punishment.

Brandon and I discussed the disconnect between what academic research reveals about transformation and what public discourse assumes about people who have committed serious crimes. The narratives I've collected over years of proximity-based research consistently reveal human complexity that defies our neat categories of "offender" and "victim," "dangerous" and "safe," "criminal" and "citizen."

I shared examples from my book, It's Changed What I'm Living For: Exploring Narratives of Human Flourishing from Inside America's Prisons, of individuals who have spent decades transforming not only themselves but their entire environments—mentoring younger men, mediating conflicts, creating educational opportunities, and developing deep theological and philosophical insight. These are not anomalies or exceptions. They represent what becomes possible when we create conditions for genuine transformation rather than merely warehousing human beings.

One case that exemplifies this is Dominic Marino, whose story appears prominently in my research. Over 29 years of incarceration, Dominic completed seminary education, became a mentor and leader within his facility, demonstrated consistent growth and accountability, and developed the kind of character and competency that should have made him an obvious candidate for release. Yet he was recently denied parole—a decision that highlights the gap between evidence of transformation and policy outcomes.

These stories matter because they reveal the human dignity that must come before policy outcomes. When we lead with metrics and statistics while ignoring the actual human beings behind the numbers, we make decisions that may satisfy political pressures but fail to serve justice, public safety, or human flourishing.

A Working Conversation, Not a Debate

What I appreciated most about this podcast conversation was Brandon's framing: "This is not a debate episode. It's a working conversation between research and lived reality—grounded in evidence, humility, and firsthand experience."

That's exactly the kind of discourse we need more of in criminal justice reform.

Too often, conversations about incarceration, education, and reentry become polarized debates between tough-on-crime advocates and reform activists, between academics and practitioners, between those who emphasize accountability and those who emphasize restoration. But transformation happens in the messy middle ground where evidence meets experience, where individual stories illuminate larger patterns, and where we hold multiple truths simultaneously: people can cause serious harm and be capable of profound change; public safety matters and so does human dignity; accountability is essential and so is opportunity for redemption.

My research attempts to inhabit that middle ground—to be what I call a "translator" who carries stories from incarcerated individuals to policymakers, church leaders, researchers, and communities. The work requires proximity to the lived reality inside correctional facilities while maintaining the analytical rigor needed to identify patterns, mechanisms, and implications for policy and practice.

What This Means for Practice

Whether you're a practitioner working in correctional education, an educator considering how to contribute to justice reform, a policymaker trying to make evidence-based decisions, or simply someone asking how people truly change, this conversation offers several key takeaways:

• Transformation cannot be measured by recidivism alone. We need more nuanced, comprehensive assessments that capture well-being, community connection, purpose, and agency.
• Educational programs that treat participants with dignity and intellectual seriousness create cultural shifts beyond individual outcomes. The ripple effects matter.
• The gap between academic research and real-world practice remains too wide. We need more bridge-builders who can translate between these worlds.
• Redemption stories challenge our assumptions and reveal possibilities we might otherwise dismiss. Proximity to these stories should inform our policy decisions.
• Human dignity must come before policy outcomes. When we lead with metrics while ignoring the human beings behind them, we undermine both justice and effectiveness.

Continue the Conversation

If these themes resonate with you, I invite you to listen to the full podcast episode and explore the research that grounds these insights.

• Listen to the episode: The Redemption Project on Spotify 
• Read the full research: My book It's Changed What I'm Living For: Exploring Narratives of Human Flourishing from Inside America's Prisons presents the complete findings from this study, including detailed narrative portraits and analysis of the five mechanisms of transformation I discovered. [Purchase the book here]
• Bring this conversation to your organization: I'm available for speaking engagements, workshops, and consultations on program evaluation, correctional education, and transformation narratives. Whether you're working in corrections, education, reentry services, or policy development, I'd welcome the opportunity to explore how these insights might inform your work. [Contact Dr. LaBarbera here]

The question "What actually changes lives inside prison?" deserves more than policy slogans and political posturing. It deserves the kind of careful, humble, evidence-grounded attention that honors both the complexity of human transformation and the dignity of every person involved.

Dr. Robin LaBarbera is Professor Emerita at Biola University and Principal of LaBarbera Learning Solutions, LLC, specializing in program evaluation for correctional education and reentry programs. Her book, It's Changed What I'm Living For: Exploring Narratives of Human Flourishing from Inside America's Prisons, was published by Ethics Press in 2025.